Forums » Gorean Knowledge

The Slave As Animal

    • 278 posts
    June 22, 2017 7:45 PM CEST

    Tal Masters and Mistresses,
    greetings slaves,

    We find the term "animal" relating to a slave girl quite often in the novels. What does it mean? Can a human being be an animal? If a kajira is seen as an animal, why are free persons not?

    Because of an comment to one of the quotes, that regarding a kajira as an animal was nonsense, I would like to discuss this topic. What do you think, does John Norman mean and why? Is it just to explain the legal status of a slave or is there some philosophic thoughts behind it, too?

    adira
    kajira of Alduras

    • 23 posts
    June 28, 2017 1:56 AM CEST

    I think slaves are animals or at least they should be treated that way. Unfortunately society makes us treat them in a conventional way, I mean giving them clothes, shoes, etc but they slaves and we Masters and Mistress now perfectly they are animals and so their legal status is. I think this point is clear and when a kajiras accept slavery she knows she deserves being treated as an animal and every usage given by the Master as person is just a gift.

    • 278 posts
    June 28, 2017 12:53 PM CEST

    Greetings, Master!

    *slave performs obeisance* 

    thank you very much for your input, Master. If I understand you right, you are talking about the lifestyle on earth, that is why I opened another topic, in the lifestyle area of the forums. I hope you agree with that, Master.

    Gorean society regard kajirae as animals. I think there are little doubts on Gor, that slaves are animals in contrast to the free people. I wrote more about my thoughts, relating to the lifestyle in the other topic, which you can find here:

    https://mygorean.com/index.php/forums/topic/52/slaves-are-animals-is-this-true-and-why/view/post_id/256

    adira
    kajira of Alduras

  • April 14, 2018 1:51 AM CEST

    I agree with Lustus, slaves should be treated as animals.

    Gorean Masters should treasure their slaves as prized possessions , and as possessions they should keep them from injury and harm, but their training and treatment should strict as the more well trained and pleasing a slave is,  the more valuable she is to her Master. The more a  Master has feelings for His slave and property the greater His strictness and need for training His property as an animal.

    SageMaster

  • April 14, 2018 1:54 AM CEST

    That includes a slave in private --public protocol has to be adjusted  so you are not put in jail

    • 2 posts
    April 14, 2018 6:41 AM CEST

    Tal, Masters and Mistresses,

    Greetings slaves,

    This common usage has to do with the distinction between those who are Free and therefore an exalted class of human beings and those who are owned and therefore at the level of livestock. In one very broad sense, all human beings are "animals", along with all other non-human animals. But, in the sense of the slave, on Gor perhaps, but not here, there is a belief that the slave is legally and socially at the level of livestock in terms of rights and uses.

    While this notion can be interesting and maybe even exciting at times, it's also unsettling because if slaves are livestock like any other then why isn't sex betweeen Owner and slave a form or beastiality? Of course it is not, and we know it's not. So somehow slaves are both human beings, desirable or at least useful as the Free wish them to be, and legally able to be treated like a dog, or horse, or cat.

    • 278 posts
    April 14, 2018 10:01 AM CEST

    Greetings Masters, Mistresses and slaves,

    thank you for your input. I started this topic in "Goren Knowledge" because I wonder about the philosophy behind the gorean society, if there is any. Andy has stated, that it's about the legal status, the difference between Free and slaves. Slaves are legally animals on Gor.

    But I think, it's more than just a legal thing. We can read often about "natural slave". If being slave is not just a legal state, but also a question of nature, it makes sense, that such "natural slave" also becomes legally a slave, since only then it may be the blossom, it's meant to be. Like any other animal is used as that animal which is meant to be, Goreans see the kajirae also as such natural animals, thus legal slavery is just a logically consequence on Gor.

    But slavery also applies for male slaves. Andy stated, that slaves are seen as animals, so, too, the male slaves. Is this then natural as well or is it the price to be paid to have legally slavery as part of society? Or are some males also naturally slaves? If it is not natural for men to be slaves, are they still seen as animals like the female slaves?

    What do you think about it?

    adira
    kajira of Alduras

    • 2 posts
    April 14, 2018 1:27 PM CEST

    Greetings Masters, Mistresses and slaves,

    Good questions all aldira...and excellent points. What I was trying to do was distinguish between the "animal" nature of slaves legally, like any other livestock or property, which would definitely include male slaves, and the "animal" nature of everyone in the sense that we all share as humans the characteristics of animals. You are absolutely right that it's more than a legal thing for those who subscribe to the Gorean views. But those are all consensual relationships and must be so here on Earth. That does NOT mean the relationships between Free and slave are any less real than on Gor, just not pertinent in the legal sense. When people are done with Gorean relationships, they break up like with any other. I do hope, though, that all understand that I am not trying to trivialize such relations.

    I do also believe that the notion of slaves as animals in the Gorean sense can be realized on Earth, but not in the way that the books show, except maybe for brief times in private places. On the other hand, when I have experienced serving as a slave, I have found it to be surprisingly satisfying in a number of ways, most of which would speak to the "animal" or non-intellectual nature of me.  My "nature" is to be intellectual with everything, so being in a position where that is not expected or needed, unless called for by the Free, does somehow speak to that animal nature inside me. 

    In that sense, then, I would say that those who are in the same situation, that is serving as slaves, ARE both animals in the Gorean sense and in the human sense. But the Gorean sense does not permit such animals to hide their feelings or yearnings, but to merely obey and behave as their "animal" nature commands. The Free on the other hand, while still human animals in the broad sense, are those who are permitted and expected to exercise their intellectual skills in supervising slaves and to use the slaves so they can be intellectual when THEY wish to be. 

    Well wishes to all.

    andy kajirus

    • 4 posts
    July 2, 2018 3:12 AM CEST

    Tal & Greetings

    Interesting points of view. If we look historically here, and all the chronicles of Gor. A slave is mere stock, bought, sold, and captured like any other beast (horse, dogs, pigs and so on), so equating them in equal terms would not be considered a far stretch at all.

     

    If i get a dog, it would be as a pup, it would be first and always and animal within my household. It would not ever be considered a free person, that would be stupid to consider. Now I will train it, I will play with it, I may even come to love and respect it, I will in time consider it a part of my household, but the dog is still an it, and animal. I will care for it, I will make sure its needs are met, but it will always be an animal and I it's master.

    Is a slave any more then the family dog, at times hell yes. It will not misbehave just to misbehave, it will not speak out of turn, nor will it ever disrespect me, and if it ever bites the hand that feeds it, it is gator bait.

    Yes I will treat my slave no less as god as I will my dog. In time I am sure as her training moves forward and she has learned how to be pleasing to me, I will grow at least as fond of her as I will my dog.

    Is it just a legal thing, no more then it is a proper place and training of a slave. It is owned property, it has no rights or legal repercussions any more then any other beast should.

     

    As to a male slave I have a very hard line of thought to them, to me a male slave deserves what ever they may get. No man should ever submit, it would be much more honorable to die in combat them to surrender, specially to a woman. I am sure there will always some males that will never be a natural dominant, that they are naturally weak. A male that would submit is just that weak. That weakness should not be allowed to add to the gene pool. I do understand that this may come off as cruel, so be it.

    As brought up by andy kajirus, which holds true for earth and is a serious messed up issue, the legality of it. A slave knows, not matter what, unless they are chained and collared to a point they can not go into civiliation, or have any access to call authorities there is no legality of this relationship. The slave can chose at any time to end her surrender at any time. and owner can possibly go to prison. Earth has become an instant gratification, disposable society. We do not like how things are going, or it gets too tough, we will take our ball and run away. There is no accountability in general, no honor in keeping ones word or vow.  There are some who trained well, and the kajira with the right mind set( this of course does come from proper and continuous training of their girl (any desire of the kajira to leave must be the owners fault....)

    As long as slaves have the wrong mindset, and owner lack in the training of a slave there will be the issue of them walking away.  gorean kajira trained will by a strong owner will have no issues of keeping his animal for a long long time, and she will make him proud he put the time and effort into her training.

     

    Mr Starr

     

     

     

  • July 2, 2018 10:41 AM CEST
    Is a slave an animal? Of course! We are all animals, human apes called "homo saphiens".

    What's the sense to stress that slaves are just (like) animals? For me every pet is a person, a living beeing with it's own character and it's needs. If you compare slaves with livestock that you just can breed and slaughter, I assure you, I never would become your slave, or I would fight with all my might to become free of you.

    Human beings have human needs, that doesn't depends on the classification you give them. Nowadays every zoo should know that you can't keep human apes ignoring their special needs. That would be just cruelsome.

    Love and safety are very special human needs. You can live temporarily without them, but in longer terms it will destroy your psyche if you have to miss love and/or have to cope with fear.

    So why did Norman descriped the kajiras as animals? Well, he wrote his books in first time to please the readers, the novels haven't been thought to be his "testament", or his "bible". He knew the woman soul quite well. We want to be like wax, like a (f) toy in the hands of our partners. It pleases us to give us away, to be the resource of joy and live. That starts in bed, and ends with giving birth, breast feeding, and giving a good part of our life for growing up our children.
    Someone wrote a good slave should be selfless. I agree, that a slave shouldn't demand what he/she is in need for. But still the needs are there. To be a master might be a very complicated task, and it's much more than just having a dog, or a cat.

    • 4 posts
    July 2, 2018 4:56 PM CEST

    Greetings Johanna-MichealaYes johanna, in truth a kajira will more hen a dog, in time. That will happen as she is trained to her owners desires and tastes. How long will that take, it will be different from one kajira to the next. As a human slave will they have more required needs that any other live stock, yepper they sure will. And we can split hairs of the difference between a Gorean slave and a BDSM slave. On Gor, yes you can you just can breed, slaughter, buy and sell slave at a whim. Here of course one can not do any of the above except one.

    At the beginning of a Owner /slave relationship there may be attraction, and owner may even be smitten by the potential slave he wishes to capture and enslave, but he will not know the full measure of her needs, and he will not likely be head over heels with said slave. That will likely come in time. Although like like her training, and what she will have to learn to be pleasing to him, he will also learn her, what her needs are (mental, emotion, and physical needs), and it is his responsibility to make sure those needs are met. Of course any strong  owner will met those needs in his time, not in hers, so he does not appear weak and a slave to her wants and desires.

    Yes if a dog has an illness that requires shots daily, or a slave has diabetes, those special needs are the responsibility of the owner to provide in a timely manner.  Does this make the pet/slave any less to him, No! It does not.

    Now from a Gorean ethos, not a earthing ethos, which are very different, are they equal, they are mere animals. They are possessions, now weather they are prized possessions would be up to the owners training of his slave and the quality of her service.

     

    I presently have a girl, that is about to be freed, one that I hold in much lower regard then the family dog. Now of course I have to take responsibility for both why we are at this juncture an to remedy the situation. That is my responsibility as an owner, That is my accountability as a man. I know that it was I who failed, I failed in the up keep of her training, and failed to be strong enough to see the signs along the way that lead us to such a point. But I am not leading her to slaughter because of her being displeasing. Even if it was all her failings that is not going to happen.

     

    So my point being, yes, a kajira is a slave, she is equated to live stock, and yes, her well-being is just as important as the live stock is, and let face it will be taken better care of then the live stock. Remember, who's job it is to feed the other critters,, LOL

     

     

    • 7 posts
    July 6, 2018 12:16 AM CEST

    Perhaps 'animals' is too broad a term to be helpful. A pest animal is treated different to a farm animal, which is treated differently to a companion animal. A dog is treated very differently to a cat, a a cat in America is treated very differently to a cat here.

    I'm sure in at least some cases 'animal' is just used to reflect their legal status - a slave is owned property in the way a horse is owned property. Male slaves on gor are often used as beasts of burden.

    Animals generaly are 'natural' - they do what comes fairly naturally for them, unless excessively trained by humans otherwise. Even a domestic cat with hunt, kill, eat, sleep and mate as it feels natural. Gorean ideas generally favour that humans would be happier and healthy if they lived natural lives, rather than denying their biology for social reasons or technological comfort.

     

    • 4 posts
    July 14, 2018 7:12 AM CEST

    I suspect what the author meant, and certainly implied, is that a slave is no better than an animal in Gorean society.

    Addressing Mr Starr Watson, hang in there. That same thing has happened to the best of men. Owning the life of another is not all fun and games, as some might lead one to think. It can be a learning process. Best to just start again with a clean slate. 

     

    Good luck,

    Bear-

     

    • 4 posts
    July 15, 2018 5:22 AM CEST

    Thank you for your kind words Bear ofAr, and yes I have to agree on both subjects.